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Conversation with
Thomas (Tommy) Knoles
One of Flagstaff's Pow Wow people talks about Indian trading, early Flagstaff, and the evolution of the Pow Wow celebration over the years.
This interview, arranged and photographed by K. C. DenDooven and conducted by his editor, Gaylord Staveley, appeared in Western Gateways Magazine -Pow WOW - Official Program 1967
1967
Thomas M. Knoles, Jr. is an Arizona State Senator, Chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee, now in his third Senate term after as many terms in the House of Representatives. He has been active in producing the Flagstaff Pow Wow for over thirty years, as a member of the Board of Directors of Pow Wow, Inc., a non-profit corporation organized for that specific purpose.
The Knoles family came to Flagstaff as bakers in the early 1900's after a short try at cattle ranching. The Knoles Bakery in downtown Flagstaff is a kind of local institution where a good deal of the town's business is informally done over hot coffee and fresh pastry. A bakery has occupied this site for some 55 years.
The Knoles family live in a rustically attractive house that Tom built largely by himself on a portion of the Greenlaw homestead in Flagstaff. The open beam ceilings and the rough fieldstone fireplace made a particularly appropriate setting, as we talked over the early days.
Western Gateways: Tom, when did you first become involved in the Flagstaff Pow Wow?
Thomas Knoles: I started on the Committee in 1932 or '33, and part of my responsibility was the feeding of the Indian people who came to town for the goings-on. For the first few pow wows we would buy thirty or forty sheep and corral them at City Park near the encampment area. They would be allotted to the clans and groups and the squaws would come and get them. The Indians would butcher them right at the grounds and use the meat during their stay at the Pow Wow.
But we weren't getting good or fair distribution, so we discontinued that way of doing it and started buying beef from Babbitt's and a packing company in Phoenix, and feeding them ourselves. We'd cut up whole beef animals and set up at City park so that we could boil the meat, along with potatoes and beans, and have a regular cow line. We fed twice a day, early in the morning, and in the evening.
Western Gateways: How much of this beef stew would you put out in a day's time?
Thomas Knoles: Oh, it wasn't stew. The Indians liked it separate, so we boiled the meat in one kettle, the potatoes in another, and the beans in another. There was a cooking crew working day and night, cooking hundreds and hundreds of pounds of potatoes and five or six hundred pounds of beans twice a day, every day. Then the war came along and we couldn't get meat. If that hadn't happened I don't know what we would have done, but anyway it gave us a reason to stop doing it that way. After the war we didn't try to feed all the Indian people again, just the dance teams and the bands, but gradually we put those people on a per diem system, giving them so much money each day to cover their meal costs.
Western Gateways: How did you first become interested in the Indian people?
Thomas Knoles: For a long time I had the only sizeable wholesale bakery in northern Arizona, and I shipped bread to several of the trading posts, even up into Utah. Kaibito and Cow Springs and the Warren Trading Post in Kayenta, and "Slim" Goulding in Monument
Valley.Credit was different in those days, a lot more personal.
Several times a year I'd get in my chevy - - this was in the late 20's - - and go out across the reservation to collect bread bills. Often times I would come back with the back of the car full of Navajo rugs, in trade for bread bills. Of course I couldn't bake Navajo rugs, or eat them either, so I'd trade them to Babbitt Brothers or Gallup Mercantile.
So through these trips, I got to know the Navajos and Hopis well, and have a number of real old, old timers as friends.
Western Gateways: I suppose the bread deliveries in those days were made by light trucks or freight wagons, weren't they?
Thomas Knoles: No, all deliveries at that time went out through the Post Office on a star route - - a parcel post system that was subsidized just like air mail and air freight are today. It was the cheapest way to ship. Nine cents for the first pound and a cent a pound for every thing over that. You couldn't run a truck for a cent a pound!
Everything from bread to furniture went out to the reservations this way, three days a week as far as Tuba City, and two days a week on to Kayenta. We'd weigh our boxes at the bakery and put 68 cents in stamps on a sixty pound box and send it out.
I had a little stunt I did for years when I was shipping bread this way. The newsstands would tear the covers off their unsold copies and stack them in the alley, and I'd gather them up and put them in the bottom of our bread boxes and count them as part of the shipping weight. On my trips out on the reservations I'd come across these coverless magazines at the trading posts. They would be read by the trader and his family, then taken out by the Indians, read, brought back, and traded for others. I think it was appreciated, because people didn't have the three or four dollars a year for subscriptions.
The Navajo particularly had very little cash money, except what they got for selling pinion nuts to the trader. About everything else was bartered, rugs for bread and such.
Western Gateways: Being geared to that kind of trade area, wasn't Flagstaff's economy a little unsteady?
Thomas Knoles: Trading and business was done on a very open and honorable basis. If we were lucky the traders would pay us twice a year, and if we were lucky, we'd pay Babbitt Brothers four or five times a year. Babbitts have been great builders, but they have had their troubles, and they were caused indirectly by fellows like me who were in the wholesale business. If I had trouble collecting, then I had trouble paying Babbitts. And nearly everyone in Flagstaff would have a charge account at Babbitts. They were on the end of the line.
Flagstaff was a tough little community, less than 5,000 people, and all our business was done in the summer.
Between Labor Day and memorial Day there was no outside money coming in, we just traded the same dollars back and forth. Through the early 30's of course I was a bad time in Flagstaff as well as the rest of the country.
Western Gateways: Tom, have you always lived in Flagstaff?
Thomas Knoles: No, we originated in Los Angeles. We left there, though, in 1916 and moved to the Huachuca Mountain area southeast of Tucson. We homesteaded and ran a small cattle outfit there, below Fort Huachuca, and Lewis Springs. In 1920 I returned to California to go to high school, then I came to Flagstaff in 1923 and graduated from the new high school in 1924.
Western Gateways: Why Flagstaff?
Thomas Knoles: My father and his two brothers were bakers, and their procedure was to go around the country looking for run down bakeries. They would build them up, run them for a year or two, and sell them. They bought a bakery at 9 North Beaver, just off Santa Fe next to the corner where a Union Service Station now is. Winter business was so bad that we sold it and moved down to Bisbee, but I had had a taste of Flagstaff and couldn't wait to get back, so within a short time I had come back and bought the same bakery again.
Western Gateways: But that's not the present Knoles Bakery on Aspen Street?
Thomas Knoles: No, that came later. This was a wholesale operation in a big building that had been built as a dance hall in 1912 or so. It had an arched oval roof and a balcony for the orchestra. They say during the flu epidemic a couple of years after it was built, that the hall and the building next to it were used as mortuaries. I hadn't come here yet, but the old times said Flagstaff had an epidemic away out of projection to the rest of the country. Anyway, that building was later where I had my bakery.
George Babbitt, Jr. and I bought the present building in 1927, then he became interested in real estate opportunities. He bought some land east of Phoenix in the Verde River area for five or ten dollars an acre, figuring there would some day be a highway from Salt Lake City to Mesa, Arizona because of the Mormon population of Mesa. We were sure the road would go down the Verde River and raise the value of the land. It didn't, but the land turned out to be Scottsdale!
Even if I'd have had the available cash to invest, I probably would have been the fist to sell when the valuation went to twenty dollars an acre, so it's just as well. All my interests are right here in Flagstaff.
Western Gateways: Is there any one person who could be given credit for starting the Pow Wow?
Thomas Knoles: Well, to the best of my recollection I would have to give Dr. Colton of the Museum of Northern Arizona credit for calling i the "Flagstaff pow Wow". I believe he was president of he Chamber of Commerce about that time.
Of course he whole ting started years before as a Fourth of July celebration. There was a park in an open flat between the University buildings and the stadium, and they would have horse racing, chicken pulls, log sawing and all of that. Then in the early 20's the elks Club started a "Days of '49" with beard-growing and stage saloons and local girls dressed in can-can costumes. The whole thing got so big that the Chamber of Commerce took it over and hit on the idea that this would make a good indian show, so they changed it over from the "Days of '49" idea. The concept was excellent, but Chamber membership changed from year to year, and there wasn't the necessary continuity, so finally a group of interested business men incorporated as Pow Wow Inc.
Western Gateways: Was it incorporated for the purpose of selling stock to raise money to operate?
Thomas Knoles: No, it was done to encourage membership through personal protection of the Directors in case it went broke or something like that. They also developed the Pow Wow along different lines, to entertain the Indian people and acquaint them with Flagstaff as a place to trade. We hoped for tourist as well as local support, but that wasn't the primary idea. This meant quite a change from he "Days of '49" concept.
Western Gateways: What sort of thing did the early Pow wows include?
Thomas Knoles: We had Indian games in the afternoon. And a parade; we've always had a parade. It was mostly just Indians walking, hundreds of them, and their wagons. We used to get the Hopi band to come. They placed about two concerts a year, and this was one of them. I think their practice session was the other!
Our old, old braves, and a few cowboys we had around would come in. They would bring in these half starved Indian ponies, using them to pull the wagons to town, and then unhook them and saddle them up and compete with them in the rodeo.
The Pow Wow did some fine things for the Indian people. For instance it made the Indian cowboy realize that he had been riding a poor hose all his life.
The Apache, who were to me the first real cowboys, brought in better horses from the southern part of the state. Until then the Navajos had never seen such horses; as a result they worked themselves into better horses, and now have a fine a horse as there is.
Western Gateways: is regular rodeo stock used in the Pow Wow rodeo?
Thomas Knoles: No, regular rodeo stock is too large and too heavy for young Indian boys to handle - - and too fast. You see, our entrants aren't professionals. Some of these boys will come in from places like Barstow the night before. They haven't been on a horse since the previous Pow Wow. Or they work at Navajo Army Depot or in Phoenix, and are just taking the weekend off. The last few years we have contracted our stock and required some additional through the winter stock sales around the area. It isn't top-notch stock like they would have for the Phoenix rodeo, but it only costs us perhaps one-fifth as much.
You see, big-time rodeo stock is graded, they have a culling committee, and if they have 30 ropers they may have to start with 50 calves and cull out 20 to have 30 left about the same size. Then they number the remaining calves and have a drawing.
That's the way the pros do it, but of course we don't. We just send them out in order and there are big calves and little calves, but there is seldom any complaint. This is hardest on the Bulldoggers, if a steer is too large they can't handle it, but if it's too small and they land on it too hard they "bust" it -- that is they knock it flat, then have to let it back up before they can bulldog it. Stock size is an improvement we would probably make if we could afford it, but our stock cost is so heavy the way it is that we just have to do the way we have.
Western Gateways: Is the Pow Wow Parade restricted to Indian participants?
Thomas Knoles: Yes, with one exception - - the Chief of Police drives the car at the head of the procession. This is done so that the parade will be properly timed. The old chiefs or medicine men usually ride there, too.
I don't recall any Pow Wow Committee member or any white person being in any parade. There have been occasional efforts to smuggle them in, probably just for the challenge of doing it.
One year there was a baton twirler who was the daughter of a band director, a white girl, who wouldn't enter his band unless his daughter could march. The Committee said that was okay, but a white girl wasn't going to twirl in an all-Indian parade. He finally saw it our way.
Western Gateways: Wasn't there a little problem in the committee at one time over whether then President Eisenhower would be allowed in the parade because he's not Indian?
Thomas Knoles: Well, I don't know whether that was sham or not, but it was certainly discussed. I'm certain that if he had responded to our invitation and attended, he would have been in the parade. We have had a number of dignitaries; we invite a lot of them, but the point is, we have never built our show around a dignitary. We have tried to build it around the Indian, and I think we have been successful, and that it has attracted and intrigued the Indian people.
Western Gateways: It must, because a high percentage of the Indian participants are repeaters, year after year. We understand that many of the rodeo contestants leave their prize money on deposit with Pow Wow, Inc. so that they will have it waiting for them when they arrive the following year.
Thomas Knoles: Yes, that's quite true. Some of them even leave without knowing they have won, and don't find out until they come back the following year to register. others will say, "leave it there so I'll have a little money to spend when I come back next year." Some of them, though, weaken in the meantime and write for it. We send it to them.
Western Gateways: The rodeo contestants seem to have a good chance at some prize money. Are the other participants recompensed in any way?
Thomas Knoles: Well, the wagons in the parade for instance earn an amount for each day's participation. It's paid both in money and in goods.
Two bales of hay for each wagon the first day, one bale the second day, and two bales the last day.
That takes care of the teams.
Then each wagon gets a sack of flour or a watermelon, so that the youngsters and the women have something to eat in addition to their other meals.
And lastly, as they start down the parade route, . . .
. . .we give each driver three dollars the first day, three dollars the second, and four dollars the third. We try to give the money to the squaw, and quite often she will be driving when the wagon comes up to the paymaster. We always liked to give it to them in silver dollars, . . . .
. . . . . but you know how that has been in the last few years.
Western Gateways: What enforcement or medical problems does the Pow Wow pose?
Thomas Knoles: Some, as you would expect, but we have good cooperation and the solutions are not the usual ones. Most of the Pow Wow Committee members have a great many friends among the Indian people, and when there's trouble we can settle them down easier than the police, for instance. They aren't afraid of uniforms or weapons, . . . .
. . . . . they are afraid of being badly thought of by their friends . . . . .
. . . .in the Pow Wow organization. We spend sixteen or eighteen hours a day around he encampment and arena areas during the four days and nights, just to be in evidence. Sometimes we are spread pretty thin, but it still seems to be the best way.
Of course there is the police surveillance that is involved in any large assemblage of people, and we keep one or two ambulances on the grounds. There is a first aid station available day and night. And we have wonderful cooperation from the various Indian tribes and from the health agencies.
Western Gateways: We understand Pow wow Inc. carries a rain insurance policy. How does this work?
Thomas Knoles: In effect, it insures against loss of gate receipts due to summer showers. We've been carrying it for twenty five years or so, and I'd say we're about even on the cost of it. Rainfall has to exceed one tenth of an inch, and fall certain hours of the day. We carry ours for the hours between 11:30 and 2:30, thinking that a noon rain would hurt more than a mid-afternoon rain. The same is true in the evening; we carry our rain insurance until the show is well started, from about two or three hours in advance.
Western Gateways: Where is the rain measured - - if it falls?
Thomas Knoles: Right on top of the grandstand. The meteorologist comes out and measures it, using his gauge. The insurance proceeds make up for the gate receipts you don't get in the event of rain, and help to pay for the already incurred expenses that we have whether it rains or not.
Western Gateways: Doesn't it make the committee nervous, knowing that many Indian tribes traditionally perform Rain Dances?
Thomas Knoles: No, but for a while we had some trouble with local people, who started making personal side bets against the odds that we would or would not collect rain insurance. It got just like a brokerage until the insurance company put its foot down. After all, if you could buy yourself $10,000 worth of rain insurance for July Fourth, wouldn't you be tempted to play the odds?
We hedge a little though, with sawdust in the arena. This happened because of a hard noon rain several years ago. By early afternoon there was a little river right through the arena. The Indians were good spots and wanted to go ahead and did. They had a great time other than getting a little muddy and wet. Then with the night show ahead of us we were all standing around wondering out loud what to do. We thought of moving the night dances to the University fieldhouse or to the Armory, but decided that might break tradition. Finally we got the idea of laying down sawdust, and in two hours we had about a foot of it on the arena. It absorbed enough of the mud and water and the Indians liked it so well we've been using it ever since, for both the night and afternoon shows. Now that the mills have their pulp and burning programs, it may be hard to get. I hope not because it has really saved the situation, especially for our night dance programs.
Western Gateways: Tom, the Pow wow has been an annual even now for many years. What do you personally see for it in the future?
Thomas Knoles: Well, it's changed over the years, big changes when it went from a Days of '49 to an Indian program and so forth, and I imagine it's bound to change in some ways as it goes on. But I hope not too much. I would especially hate to see it become too large - - I think some of the similar western shows are losing out because they are getting too large, trying to appeal to too many people. There is a certain closeness among the Pow Wow people that makes up the nucleus of the Pow Wow, a certain affinity that would be lost if it got to be a big multi-purpose event. Then the Indians don't feel like they belong, they don't have the personal involvement. And in a huge grandstand, for instance, the performers are so far away from the spectators that a lot is lost. I personally hope we stay on this same concept, that the show is for the Indians, not the tourists, though tourists and everyone are welcome. What it is really is a convention for the Indian people, a chance to meet with old friends and to make new friends, and to get together up in the pines. They appreciate that.
